boog900: 1) greetings ``` ``` kayabanerve: 👋 ``` ``` boog900: Just me and you today ``` ``` boog900: 2) updates ``` ``` boog900: Me: I have been working on FCMP tree building, should be ready to PR it today ``` ``` boog900: It is pretty quick ``` ``` boog900: 3) Project: What is next for Cuprate? ``` ``` boog900: After I have PRd the tree building I'll be back to getting the next release ready ``` ``` kayabanerve: Not Cuprate explicitly, but it seems monero-oxide is being adopted by monero-rs. ``` ``` kayabanerve: With all the progress on an RPC, I'm extremely interested in adding cuprate to the matrix of nodes we test against in the oxide CI. ``` ``` boog900: I'll make sure what is needed is in the next release ``` ``` boog900: Will probably be out sometime in October ``` ``` syntheticbird: hi ``` ``` syntheticbird: no update from my part ``` ``` syntheticbird: nice ``` ``` boog900: For monero-rs I don't really know the best way forward ``` ``` kayabanerve: I am interested in a Monero/Cuprate/Serai StageX fork. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I would say it's to give monero-oxide the name and be done with it. ``` ``` kayabanerve: It seems silverpill is acting as maintainer nowadays, and I understand they want to provide a transition at this time however. ``` ``` boog900: Yeah I think so too but monero is a more user friendly crate at the moment ``` ``` kayabanerve: insecure, incorrect features are antifeatures /s ``` ``` boog900: True but if you are just pulling txs from a trusted source it works ``` ``` boog900: Standard txs* ``` ``` boog900: It doesn't try match wallet2 ``` ``` kayabanerve: I think that's a step too far and I don't actually want to accuse it of currently having various vulnerabilities. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I do know, as we have both experienced, it isn't up to par though. ``` ``` syntheticbird: when it comes to privacy and security, an antifeature for one is a feature for another ``` ``` syntheticbird: wrong reply ``` ``` syntheticbird: ^ ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'm not convinced the additional utilities it offers are well-defined. When I first used it years ago, it had a critical vulnerability in the scanner it shipped. ``` ``` jbabb: I've been working with guix and nix lately with much greater ease of use than with stagex. I understand tobtoht is doing work on monero reproducibility with stagex currently, tho, and so previously commented that stagex might be a better bet for ecosystem reasons but I just want to report that nix has been really pleasant to work with lately. ``` ``` kayabanerve: Because we have this library which focused on correctness and safety however, I don't see why I would ask myself to review if a library which never got past its "growing pains" phase, and is stuck as 'enough to render a block explorer', secure implements the features not present in oxide. ``` ``` kayabanerve: *securely ``` ``` kayabanerve: As one example, ``` ``` kayabanerve: wtf is this https://docs.rs/monero/latest/src/monero/util/amount.rs.html#573-575 ``` ``` syntheticbird: RIP Josh Babb ``` ``` syntheticbird: we'll make sure to never trust the agent that stole your account ``` ``` jbabb: hey, I'm not installing a full guix or nixos on metal :) maybe I should be clearer: when virtualizing* ``` ``` kayabanerve: I don't mind the UX of StageX. I mind how it's completely untrustworthy IMO and is actively resisting steps to gain trust, preferring instead to just 'do things'. ``` ``` syntheticbird: thats interesting none the less, thx for the feedback ``` ``` boog900: > <@kayabanerve:matrix.org> Because we have this library which focused on correctness and safety however, I don't see why I would ask myself to review if a library which never got past its "growing pains" phase, and is stuck as 'enough to render a block explorer', secure implements the features not present in oxide. Yeah fair ``` ``` kayabanerve: I do understand there are some actually missing features though, primarily regarding the entropy -> view pair pipeline. Is that it? ``` ``` kayabanerve: If we add that, with the FCMP++ HF, would it be an issue for us to take over the monero crate name? 🤔 ``` ``` boog900: I would be happy with monero-oxide taking the crate name ``` ``` syntheticbird: I would be happy with monero-oxide taking over the world ``` ``` kayabanerve: It isn't our call :p I would say it's h4sh3d's and I'm not presumptuous enough to ask. It seems silverpill is acting maintainer now, and is asking though. ``` ``` jbabb: is monero-rs relevant any more? doesn't look like it from https://github.com/monero-rs/monero-rs/commits/main/ ``` ``` boog900: True are they even around anymore? ``` ``` kayabanerve: Josh Babb: Why did you thumbs down me but thumbs up boog? ``` ``` jbabb: or maybe I should ask: is it maintained* ``` ``` jbabb: sorry--"no, it would not be an issue" ``` ``` kayabanerve: Oh. silverpill isn't a maintainer on crates.io ``` ``` syntheticbird: crates.io probably can take bribery to remove a crate right ? ``` ``` syntheticbird: (this is a joke) ``` ``` jbabb: ask cubeit ``` ``` kayabanerve: I mean, we can reach out to h4sh3d if we want. I just wouldn't have. I assumed silverpill, who brought this up, was now a maintainer and could decide. ``` ``` boog900: they have perms on the repo, like me, and can run the github action to publish ``` ``` boog900: wait you are a maintainer on crates.io ``` ``` kayabanerve: Yeah, because of the dispute where I was banned from crates.io after _someone_ accused me of squatting, and I was told I couldn't have monero- crates unless they were either active _or_ I was a member of the undocumented informal namespace. ``` ``` kayabanerve: Because of that absolute bullshit, I asked if I could be added to the monero crate, as the crates.io team has an informal policy of not minding x-y as x is considered a namespace. ``` ``` kayabanerve: When I asked to be added, it was solely for the bs of how crates.io's mismanagement was being weaponized. I wasn't added to be a maintainer, and while I can push to it, I wouldn't usurp it like that. ``` ``` boog900: that is so dumb ``` ``` boog900: I thought just the instant removal was bad ``` ``` kayabanerve: TBC, I asked monero's maintainers to be added after crates.io told me the monero-* crates would've been fine if I was a maintainer of monero. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'd literally only yank if it had a legitimate critical vulnerability which deserved its yanking. I won't exercise any other authority over it without permission. ``` ``` kayabanerve: But yes, I can reach out to the maintainers if we want to ask. I don't want to ask to bother them if they're not active. ``` ``` kayabanerve: That's why I'm now confused exactly what silverpill: 's role is ``` ``` boog900: they can still push updates through github ``` ``` kayabanerve: Because they're acting as maintainer but can't publish, but seemingly caused an update on crates.io, so are they in active contact with the proper maintainers for the purpose of maintaining it? They just don't have publishing perms? ``` ``` kayabanerve: If so, then yeah, let's bother them and ask for the name. I just wouldn't bother them umprovoked. ``` ``` kayabanerve: boog900 @boog900:monero.social: I do hear you, I'm just unaware about this half step of permissions they have. ``` ``` boog900: H4SH3D has his cargo key on github and by running an action it pushed an update on crates.io ``` ``` boog900: silverpil can merge PRs and do stuff on the repo ``` ``` kayabanerve: Oh ``` ``` kayabanerve: So you are silverpill, as maintainers of the GH, are maintainers of crates.io? 🤔 ``` ``` kayabanerve: K. Then if you ( boog900 @boog900:monero.social ) want, I'll reach out and ask for the name. ``` ``` boog900: I think it is probably better than the alternatives ``` ``` kayabanerve: And once we've confirmed it, the sole discussion is if there's an incremental transition or if we just publish as a new minor version. ``` ``` boog900: I don't think we need a transition really ``` ``` syntheticbird: third-party cargo registry is a thing and I think we should start to accept the possibility of recommending this over crates.io ``` ``` boog900: I don't think that is easy ``` ``` syntheticbird: it's builtin forgejo ``` ``` syntheticbird: and cargo have easy supports for it ``` ``` syntheticbird: whats has been historically hard is making any other registry other crates.io be the primary. ``` ``` syntheticbird: but its not the goal here ``` ``` kayabanerve: I've asked h4sh3d and lederstrumpf for their approval. ``` ``` kayabanerve: > <@boog900:monero.social> I don't think we need a transition really I'd do one, until the FCMP++ HF, with respect for silverpill's interests (as silverpill is currently a monero-rs maintainer) but agree it's unnecessary and wouldn't advocate ir myself. ``` ``` boog900: sure yeah I am not the one using it ``` ``` kayabanerve: Is anyone using it? ``` ``` syntheticbird: so niche, even more unlikely that they are here with us ``` ``` syntheticbird: and now ``` ``` boog900: tari 👀 ``` ``` kayabanerve: *I've asked h4sh3d and TheCharlatan, sorry, got my nicks mixed up ``` ``` kayabanerve: The latest version has a fraction the downloads of the prior version. Maybe a few hundred? ``` ``` kayabanerve: monero-oxide seems to have ~5x the of than the latest version of monero-rs, by an eyeball. ``` ``` kayabanerve: *5x the downloads of the latest version ``` ``` kayabanerve: Both published ~2 months ago. ``` ``` boog900: damn I wonder who is using it ``` ``` kayabanerve: So it seems the existing user base of monero-rs died off with it :/ ``` ``` boog900: we use git deps stil in cuprate ``` ``` kayabanerve: I can't find any reverse dependencies of monero-rs's latest release published to crates.io FWIW ``` ``` kayabanerve: monero-oxide has one! Whatever https://crates.io/crates/mnr-core is ``` ``` boog900: Looks AI to me :( ``` ``` kayabanerve: > mnr stands for Monero Network Relay (hosted at mnr.network). It is an open-source, Zero-KYC cryptographic RPC proxy for Monero (XMR) wallets. It is distinct from MTA Metro-North Railroad (MNR), the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR), and the unrelated npm package mnr ``` ``` kayabanerve: boog900 @boog900:monero.social: LLM slop prefers plagiarizing monero-oxide? ``` ``` kayabanerve: Sounds like we should start trying to get bought out by anthropic like bun 👀 ``` ``` boog900: anything else anyone wants to discuss today? ``` ``` syntheticbird: Rewrite in Zig +1000000 -10000000 ``` ``` syntheticbird: nope ``` ``` kayabanerve: Does anyone else have legitimate interest in a StageX fork? ``` ``` syntheticbird: I mean we had this discussion at a last meeting but I'm interested in it ``` ``` kayabanerve: And by legitimate interest, I mean, they're willing to spend a week messing around with it ``` ``` kayabanerve: I think it could have pretty low maintenance burden soooo ``` ``` syntheticbird: it will be a yes for me but in the medium-term future ``` ``` kayabanerve: Kinda just needs someone to fork Slash and burn Add monero file done by tobtoht And be willing to do a minor amount of maintenance moving forward ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'm up for that if someone else wants to poke, but the Q then becomes if we host under a personal repo, a new org, cuprate, or oxide ``` ``` kayabanerve: So it does need _some_ basic project planning ``` ``` kayabanerve: Also, that Q matters to you boog900 @boog900:monero.social: ``` ``` jpk68: This ``` ``` kayabanerve: If we create a small, container-based Linux distro for reproducible, bootstrapped builds of Monero, where does that live 🤔 ``` ``` syntheticbird: since shared between 3 projects, a new org is the best option ``` ``` syntheticbird: at least I don't see it fit between any of the other options ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'd actually suggest oxide as a neutral ground all rely on. ``` ``` syntheticbird: oxide is not a neutral ground ``` ``` boog900: Yeah I think oxide is good ``` ``` boog900: its used be everyone ``` ``` boog900: already ``` ``` kayabanerve: le birb: why not? ``` ``` kayabanerve: Especially with how much people are discussing supply chain security re: Rust, why not take such a lead on that? ``` ``` silverpill: `monero` is used in `monero-rpc` and `monero-lws` I've been contributing and then maintaining monero-rpc for a couple of years (permission granted by h4sh3d). I was able to gain merge rights in monero only a couple of months ago thanks to boog900 because h4sh3d was not responding. ``` ``` syntheticbird: some people that would be using this stageX fork might want to use it for their monero-related project without using monero-oxide or any Rust component. Some people actively are against the inclusion of Rust into the core monero source tree and advocate for rewriting these components in C++. I may be a rust fanatic, but having a shared and language-agnostic resource that we want the whole ecosystem to use is not something to put under a single banner. I think that's sending the wrong message. ``` ``` syntheticbird: Having its own organization shows good willing to be inclusive of all feedback/criticism and contributor preferences since solely focused on this stageX fork. ``` ``` boog900: I mean it is just under monero-oxide ``` ``` syntheticbird: You do you, I plan on working on this StageX fork but since my participation in maintenance is very much certain at this point Im giving my piece and saying im against oxide ``` ``` boog900: It would be weird to just exclude monero-oxide repos just because it maintains Rust in others ``` ``` syntheticbird: It's a language agnostic project that serves a purpose that is different than monero-oxide. It has no business in being under monero-oxide. ``` ``` syntheticbird: This stageX fork will serve reproducibility for the core monero as well so I'm taking this seriously ``` ``` syntheticbird: and saying don't underestimate what the broader community can think ``` ``` kayabanerve: silverpill: Yes, and I checked those, and those also don't have reverse dependents of the latest version. ``` ``` kayabanerve: monero-oxide is depended on by monero-interface, which I also didn't include. ``` ``` irc_selsta: I'd say we can put it under monero-project unless there is a reason not to? ``` ``` syntheticbird: I was about to say this is something that needs to be discussed with monero tech but selsta is writing ``` ``` syntheticbird: ah well ``` ``` boog900: eww C++ org ``` ``` kayabanerve: Okay, but here's the thing ``` ``` kayabanerve: I honestly can't be bothered to give a fuck about everybody and every theoretical use case. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I can commit to giving a fuck about the cited three projects, even if Monero moves off of a Rust impl of FCMP++. ``` ``` kayabanerve: But I don't want to do a full Linux distro at this time, and I don't want an independent org on the suggestion it is an independent Linux distro for anyone/everyone. ``` ``` boog900: I think we just put it under any org and move later if needed ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'd rather have a small distro with strict quality concerns for the explicitly targeted projects than any further variance due to _our_ burdens as maintainers. ``` ``` kayabanerve: oxide is the org neutral between those three parties. ``` ``` kayabanerve: selsta: Yes and no ``` ``` silverpill: What kind of dependents you expected to see there? `monero-rpc` is a high level library, its users are probably not on crates.io ``` ``` kayabanerve: 1) Can we just have a repo under monero-project? 2) Will that repo guarantee support for Cuprate and Serai? 3) Can we write the CoC for it independently? ``` ``` kayabanerve: le birb: It has to be discussed with NWLB if it's a Monero project. ``` ``` syntheticbird: kayabanerve my message might suggest so, but its not the case. I'm not advocating for neutral ground because this fork can evolve beyond supporting these 3 projects ``` ``` syntheticbird: I am fine with that. ``` ``` jpk68: Why should the Monero project "guarantee" support for third-party projects like Cuprate and Serai? ``` ``` syntheticbird: monero.social lagging at the worst time ``` ``` syntheticbird: classic ``` ``` kayabanerve: This is proposing that you, me, and anyone else who speaks up, work on a Linux distro for the three mentioned projects. ``` ``` kayabanerve: Monero can do its own distro if it wants, either nor or as a fork of it later. ``` ``` boog900: We are helping to build it lol ``` ``` kayabanerve: I am not volunteering to maintain a distro in general or a distro under monero-project at this time, unless criteria are met. ``` ``` syntheticbird: yeah exactly ``` ``` syntheticbird: fair re: NWLB ``` ``` kayabanerve: jpk68: I'm not saying monero-project should. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I said I'm not going to spend my bandwidth on a Linux distro that doesn't, so whoever hosts the distro _and_ wants my contributions has to make that commitment, hence the conflict with hosting it under monero-project. ``` ``` jpk68: Please, for the love of god, do not make the main Monero codebase depend on a `monero-oxide` project for reproducible builds ``` ``` syntheticbird: This is to avoid this kind of reaction and discussion that I'm advocating for a separate org ``` ``` kayabanerve: yeah yeah, God forbid we maintain and fork a Linux distro with strict quality assurance, but also we like Rust ``` ``` syntheticbird: in the mind of most monero-oxide is not neutral ``` ``` kayabanerve: god forbid anyone who like rust touch anything ``` ``` kayabanerve: you're in the literal cuprate room, just fuck off ``` ``` boog900: we are forever tarnished ``` ``` boog900: no one can use our work as we once worked on Rust ``` ``` syntheticbird: not forever, wait for next release ``` ``` jpk68: This is just proof that you're not being neutral ``` ``` kayabanerve: le birb: Yes, I understand there's a lot of concern trolling and some legitimate arguments. ``` ``` kayabanerve: But if people can't look past "Rust bad" for a legitimate project, that's on them ``` ``` syntheticbird: my argument is not rust specifically. I don't want it under monero-project either ``` ``` syntheticbird: a stageX fork is not a C++ project ``` ``` irc_selsta: tobtoht is the one who maintains our monero repro builds, he will decide if we want a fork or not for monero itself ``` ``` jpk68: That has absolutely nothing to do with the message I sent. ``` ``` kayabanerve: At this point, I'd say it should HAVE to be under monero-oxide so if anyone wants to be upset it isn't to their arbitrary standards, regardless of what it itself is, they can do so and fuck off. ``` ``` irc_selsta: (he is currently not fully available) ``` ``` kayabanerve: > Please, for the love of god, do not make the main Monero codebase depend on a `monero-oxide` project for reproducible builds ``` ``` kayabanerve: jpk68: You're upset about the Monero using a theoretical solution, just based on the people who maintain it. ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'm pretty sure that has everything to do with what you said. ``` ``` irc_selsta: I'd say for now it can start anywhere. ``` ``` syntheticbird: yeah im fine with boog's proposal of having another org and be free to switch later ``` ``` kayabanerve: Anyways, this flame war is a waste of time. I'm fine with an independent org if it's explicitly scoped to only these three projects and adopts a framework similar to oxide's le birb: ``` ``` syntheticbird: bro stop answering the ragebait ``` ``` boog900: I agree ``` ``` syntheticbird: im fine with that ``` ``` kayabanerve: But other an independent org as such, my contributing is contingent on it being under oxide. If someone wants it elsewhere, they can fork it, or simply ignore it. ``` ``` boog900: Just put it under oxide for now ``` ``` jpk68: Please take my argument at face value. le birb raised a very fair point about ownership of that project, which I'm agreeing with, and you just tell me to "fuck off". Can we have a real conversation? Why are you assuming I'm doing some sort of weird innuendo ``` ``` syntheticbird: thats different than what you said ``` ``` boog900: oxide is anywhere ``` ``` kayabanerve: le birb: You decide. oxide to start or an independent org. ``` ``` syntheticbird: independent org. ``` ``` syntheticbird: free to move later ``` ``` syntheticbird: very likely oxide ``` ``` syntheticbird: but we start from independent ``` ``` kayabanerve: and for maintainers, myself and you, and boog900 as tiebreaker? ``` ``` syntheticbird: yes ``` ``` kayabanerve: boog900 @boog900:monero.social: Fine serving as tiebreaker and if we parasite the Cuprate room for now? ``` ``` boog900: yes that is ok with me ``` ``` kayabanerve: Yay, progress :D ``` ``` kayabanerve: I'll make an org on GH, invite y'all, and push a fork of StageX later today once confirming it is in fact so licensed. I'll then make the PR adding in a derivative of oxide's framework, and a further PR clarifying its scope and some definitions. ``` ``` kayabanerve: Then we can ignore it or poke at it whenever, no pressure le birb: :) ``` ``` jbabb: Please share a word here too, I am going to be a consumer ``` ``` kayabanerve: Yep, we have permission to parasite this chat 👍️ ``` ``` syntheticbird: yep thx kayabanerve ``` ``` boog900: nice anything else for today? ``` ``` kayabanerve: Thank you, bird :) ``` ``` boog900: thanks everyone